Comments on Life On Gold Plates: Preliminary Thoughts on the 2008 Bushman Seminar

Great comments Blair. I think the best "pastoral ...

2008-08-03T11:56:00.000-06:00

Great comments Blair. I think the best "pastoral approach" to apologetics that I have encountered yet is a set of 2 CDs that Daniel C. Peterson recently released called "Defending the Faith: Dealing with Criticism of the Church." Something about it was much more conversational and lay than the scholarly approach many have taken, and which many cannot understand. It was communication on a completely different level that I believe connects with a different type of people. Peterson did an excellent job. I can't nail down exactly what he did to make it more "pastoral" but perhaps we could do some analysis there.

Mark: As I explained in the last e-mail I sent you...

2008-07-31T22:07:00.000-06:00

Mark: As I explained in the last e-mail I sent you, I am uninterested in continuously being proselyted by you. Please respect my request.

In so much as I feel that mormons live a moral lif...

2008-07-31T20:13:00.000-06:00

In so much as I feel that mormons live a moral lifestyle, there is the concern that you do not accept the Holy Bible as the infallible Word of the Living God. How than can a man or woman be saved if they reject His Holy Word? Jesus said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one gets to the Father but by Him. Critism of Joseph Smith seems to be the focus of this seminar. My question is: What exactly is the mormon focus; Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ? How can a seer of stones and a treasure hunter be a true prophet of God? I know that you may speak of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; but these men were sinners and did not take lightly the words of God. Comparing Joseph Smith to any of the men is an utter shame and disgrace to the chosen people of God. This is not meant as an attack on Joe Smith, but comparing any man today to those leaders is a disgrace.

Sorry Curtis, I didn't get everybodies' name down ...

2008-07-30T22:37:00.000-06:00

Sorry Curtis, I didn't get everybodies' name down (I remember now).

I recall John's general feeling at lunch, but I'm ...

2008-07-30T19:37:00.000-06:00

I recall John's general feeling at lunch, but I'm curious to hear his overall impression (he had to leave part way through the second half).

I take donations in general. I have received none,...

2008-07-30T15:47:00.000-06:00

I take donations in general. I have received none, however. :(

Blair, it sounds like a cool event. thanks for sha...

2008-07-30T15:28:00.000-06:00

Blair, it sounds like a cool event. thanks for sharing your experience. Are you going to start taking donations for Art School?

Where can your paper on Seer stones be found?

2008-07-30T14:30:00.000-06:00

Where can your paper on Seer stones be found?

Getting more CES etc. involved is crucial, indeed,...

2008-07-30T14:28:00.000-06:00

Getting more CES etc. involved is crucial, indeed, Steve. I thoroughly enjoyed your paper, by the way.

Curtis, the pastoral tone is tricky. I had lunch ...

2008-07-30T14:12:00.000-06:00

Curtis, the pastoral tone is tricky. I had lunch with John Dehlin and he felt it missing from the first papers. I told him that Spencer's was different and he seemed to endorse it. (Yes, I want to focus on the best).

My focus, as I believe was Kerry's was to go after certain notions that the orthodoxy have (ie discomfort with the seer stone). I believe that if we can gain a greater acceptance of the concept then will all be in a better place. My origianl draft was a little punchier but decided to tone it down when I realized that disaffected individuals might take the tone as directed at them.

I really do believe that with proper understanding the seer stone need not be a problem.

Blair, the point of the conference was to get the papers published in the Religious Educator believing that that act would point a way forward. The seminar was also meant to train institute teachers. I am the expert on my topic though, see my CHURCH HISTORY article.

I was wondering who that guy with the beard was si...

2008-07-30T14:03:00.000-06:00

I was wondering who that guy with the beard was sitting opposite me on the other side of the room. Good to find your blog! You just got a new regular reader.

From what I understand, John Dehlin was at least s...

2008-07-30T13:51:00.000-06:00

From what I understand, John Dehlin was at least somewhat disappointed in the presentations (at least the first session, anyway.) He expressed such when eating lunch with myself, Stephen Flemming, Mark Ashurst-McGee, David Keller, and various other individuals. Dehlin doesn't believe that ultimate truth claims are an issue, it seems. If someone doesn't believe that JS really used the U+T to translate, or that the BoM is inspired fiction or something, he thinks that is fine etc. and that more should be done to make such people comfortable in the Church. While I can walk part of the way with Dehlin on that, there are other aspects of his approach that trouble me, which I'll be talking about in an upcoming post. I think Dehlin's point of view has some important things to say to teachers, bishops, parents, etc. but that it also contains some pretty serious flaws.

I thought the pastoral tone was oddly absent for b...

2008-07-30T13:46:00.000-06:00

I thought the pastoral tone was oddly absent for being so emphasized by Bushman. I heard sources cited and criticized, and theories about why something shouldn't be a problem, but no real message or outreach to the faltering or concerned member. I would love to hear John Dehlin's take on this.

Thanks for the summary, BH.

2008-07-30T13:44:00.000-06:00

Thanks for the summary, BH.

Ben: Indeed, it was nice meeting all you JI guys. ...

2008-07-30T13:41:00.000-06:00

Ben:

Indeed, it was nice meeting all you JI guys. I believe the most important aspect of the seminar itself may be the actual participants themselves, specifically those involved with Church education. I'll approach that aspect of it later in the week and see if we can kick some ideas around.

the second sentense should read: "while all this s...

2008-07-30T13:38:00.000-06:00

the second sentense should read: "while all this stuff may NOT seem new...to us..."

Sound criticism, Blair.I still stand by my take th...

2008-07-30T13:37:00.000-06:00

Sound criticism, Blair.

I still stand by my take that it was a great seminar in a sense that it was presented to a lot of CES folk and will hopefully reach an even broader CES audience. While all of this stuff may seem new, and at times outdated, to us, I bet it was new to many in the room. Just providing the opportunity for that to happen is important in itself.

I did agree with your criticism that making them take a subject they were not familiar with had some disadvantages. Like you, I seemed to think they were just repeating what others had said in the past (specifically relying on Bushman's interpretations). Though it served its purpose, and lets face it, most of the people in the audience wouldn't have known any difference, people who were more experienced in the fields may have been able to put the topics in an even more understandable framework.

I look forward to your future installments.

BTW: It was great to meet you in person there, as well.

I think that you have offered some great criticism...

2008-07-30T13:06:00.000-06:00

I think that you have offered some great criticism here. Thank you for keeping us posted. It is definitely appreciated.