Comments on Life On Gold Plates: They leave the Church but can't leave it alone

By the way, Bull, there is nothing inherently wron...

2009-10-06T04:49:26.287-06:00

By the way, Bull, there is nothing inherently wrong with being a defector or a whistle-blower depending on the situation.

Reed, you just saved me a good hour or so's worth ...

2008-08-29T08:10:00.000-06:00

Reed, you just saved me a good hour or so's worth of searching through my Maxwell shelf this weekend. You are the man. I'm going to incorporate your findings into the post.

Blair,This is what I've found - in chronological o...

2008-08-28T19:25:00.000-06:00

Blair,

This is what I've found - in chronological order:

(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979], 108.)

The Prophet Joseph spoke of how apostates often bring severe persecutions upon their former friends and associates. "When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened, and then, no marvel, if all their power should be enlisted against the truth, and they, Judas like, seek the destruction of those who were their greatest benefactors." (HC 2:23.)

Strange, how often defectors leave the Church, but they cannot leave it alone!

= = =

Neal A. Maxwell, Notwithstanding My Weakness [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1981], 84.)

Newcomers may even see a few leave the Church who cannot then leave the Church alone. Let these few departees take their brief bows in the secular spotlight; someday they will bow deeply before the throne of the Almighty, confessing that Jesus is the Christ and that this is His work. Meanwhile, let us not be surprised if, as the little stone seen by Daniel rolls relentlessly forth, some seek in vain to chip away at it.

= = =

Neal A. Maxwell, Plain and Precious Things [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1983], 72.)

Willful dissent ages ago produced yet other symptoms that are worthy of our pondering today as life confronts us with determined dissenters who leave the Church—but who then cannot leave the Church alone:

Now these dissenters, having the same instruction and the same information of the Nephites, yea, having been instructed in the same knowledge of the Lord, nevertheless, it is strange to relate, not long after their dissensions they became more hardened and impenitent, and more wild, wicked and ferocious than the Lamanites—drinking in with the traditions of the Lamanites; giving way to indolence, and all manner of lasciviousness; yea, entirely forgetting the Lord their God. (Alma 47:36.)

= = =

(Neal A. Maxwell, Men and Women of Christ [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1991], 4.)

Some members maintain only cultural ties to the Church. Often these people have had valiant parents but they themselves live off the fruits of discipleship banked by those parents and grandparents. They make no fresh, spiritual investments; they have neither new earnings nor an inheritance to pass along to their own posterity.

Then there are the dissenters who leave the Church, either formally or informally, but who cannot leave it alone. Usually anxious to please worldly galleries, they are critical or at least condescending towards the Brethren. They not only seek to steady the ark but also on occasion give it a hard shove! Often having been taught the same true doctrines as the faithful, they have nevertheless moved in the direction of dissent (see Alma 47:36). They have minds hardened by pride (see Daniel 5:20).

= = =

(Cory H. Maxwell, ed., The Neal A. Maxwell Quote Book [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1997], 68.)

Church members will live in this wheat-and-tares situation until the Millennium. Some real tares even masquerade as wheat, including the few eager individuals who lecture the rest of us about Church doctrines in which they no longer believe. They criticize the use of Church resources to which they no longer contribute. They condescendingly seek to counsel the Brethren whom they no longer sustain. Confrontive, except of themselves of course, they leave the Church but they cannot leave the Church alone. (Ensign, May 1996, p. 68.)

I found another scripture which relates:"Now these...

2008-08-27T19:23:00.000-06:00

I found another scripture which relates:

"Now these dissenters, having the same instruction and the same information of the Nephites, yea, having been instructed in the same knowledge of the Lord, nevertheless, it is strange to relate, not long after their dissensions they became more hardened and impenitent, and more wild, wicked and ferocious than the Lamanites—drinking in with the traditions of the Lamanites; giving way to indolence, and all manner of lasciviousness; yea, entirely forgetting the Lord their God" (Alma 47:36).

This is mostly meant to be an investigation on the...

2008-08-26T13:59:00.000-06:00

This is mostly meant to be an investigation on the origin of the phrase and how it is used in higher channels of the Church.

Is this meant to represent your views on the quest...

2008-08-26T13:57:00.000-06:00

Is this meant to represent your views on the question or just an investigation into its origins? I could give some insight into some other alternative explanations for the phenomenon that don't involve being a "defector", a sinner, or selling out to Belial.

Added.

2008-08-25T17:57:00.000-06:00

Added.

Excellent find! Now I need to see if I can find an...

2008-08-25T17:50:00.000-06:00

Excellent find! Now I need to see if I can find an earlier quote by Maxwell.

Found this from Nibley:How Firm a Foundation!What ...

2008-08-25T17:48:00.000-06:00

Found this from Nibley:

How Firm a Foundation!
What Makes It So

Hugh Nibley

Dialogue, Vol. 12, No. 4, p.33 (Winter 1979)

Apostates become sometimes feverishly active, determined to prove to the world and themselves that it is a fraud after all. What is that to them? Apparently it is everything--it will not let them alone. At the other end of the scale are those who hold no rancor and even retain a sentimental affection for the Church- -they just don't believe the Gospel. I know quite a few of them. But how many of them can leave it alone? It haunts them all the days of their life. No one who has ever had a testimony ever forgets or denies that he once did have it--that it was something that really happened to him. Even for such people who do not have it any more, a testimony cannot be reduced to an illusion.

If anyone finds an earlier incarnation of the quot...

2008-08-25T16:15:00.000-06:00

If anyone finds an earlier incarnation of the quote you win a free cookie. I couldn't, but I think there might be one in an early Maxwell book.

"Secular spotlight" is so Maxwellian, but "departe...

2008-08-25T12:32:00.000-06:00

"Secular spotlight" is so Maxwellian, but "departees" sounds very Oaks-ish. I wouldn't be surprised if Maxwell really was the first to coin the phrase, even if the idea originated so much earlier in our history.

Thanks for this, I was wondering as to the origin ...

2008-08-25T12:15:00.000-06:00

Thanks for this, I was wondering as to the origin of the phrase -- I wonder if Elder Maxwell in turn got it from someone.

Agreed! I hope to find the statement in an earlier...

2008-08-25T11:39:00.000-06:00

Agreed! I hope to find the statement in an earlier book by Maxwell in the future.

It's always good to track the development of state...

2008-08-25T10:44:00.000-06:00

It's always good to track the development of statements that become almost proverbial -- in part because that lets us go back to the context when their axiomatic use sometimes distorts the original meaning. Thanks for doing this.

Besides, anything that lets us revisit some paragraphs from Elder Maxwell is a good thing!