Comments on Life On Gold Plates: Rebaptism and the Mormon Reformation

Thanks for the info, I haven't heard of praxis ob....

2008-08-30T16:27:21.703-06:00

Thanks for the info, I haven't heard of praxis ob. I'll have to check into it.

I see a lot of general confusion among Protestants especially in regards to the actual role of baptism.

have been studying theologies for a while now. Bot...

2008-08-30T15:49:55.086-06:00

have been studying theologies for a while now. Both Eastern and Western. I collected a large mass of knowledge in sacramental, moral, and dogmatic theology. I have a wide collection of books, so I feel I can handle most objections when asked, though I am no card carrying apologist with a Pontifical Catechis certificate.

You hear various arguments, on grace and effiacy of works: faith alone or baptism and faith. Well baptism is a good work, produced by Jesus Christ. So I believe in Faith as a work, and effected by an external rite called baptism -- which is the sacrament of faith.

Yet, I find it very interesting and even obnoxious that the New Church of Vatican II (which claims to be the Church of Christ that subsists in the Catholic Church) has established a foreign rite to suppress the traditionl Latin Tridentine Catholic praxis (from the Council of Trent) to the point of invalidating the grace of baptism in this Novus Ordo rite. I'm not sure what is the mainstream Protestant stance on this new baptism?

In fact, I recently read this new scholarly book on the topic entitled "Praxis Obnoxia: A Moral-Theological Conclusion On The New Modernist Rite of Baptism."

http://www.lulu.com/content/3824207

I am very impressed with it, and I cannot refute its arguments, scholarship -- tons of quotes from theologians, doctors, councils, and Popes. Basically, the book proves the new rite of baptism is null and void--that means there is no valid baptism in the Vatican II church, and thus no valid sacraments and no salvation in that sect. It seems "very weird", I admit at first, but the facts are the facts, and I had to read the book a few times to really grasp the significance of what has happened since 1960s. Once you get the book you cannot put it down, it is so intense in scholastic volume.

I even spent some days of hours in the Gordon-Conwell College libraries to talk to some doctors, and even had a debate with a Greek Orthodox Professor from Harvard on this topic of conditional rebaptism or economia or oikonomia.

Not sure what's your stance? It seems Saint Cyprian would of rebaptized people coming from the New Church to the traditional Orthodox Catholic Church of the Romans.
Any opinions on this? A book review perhaps? Are you familar with "Praxis Obnoxia"? I must say this is a "Hot Topic" with Traditionalists and Conservatives.

I would counter that it is Christ's atonement that...

2008-07-18T16:15:30.329-06:00

I would counter that it is Christ's atonement that would cleanse one from sin, but that the process occurs through a covenant relationship entered into or symbolized through the ordinance of baptism and faith in Christ, etc. etc.

I have a collection of quotes on ritual itself, its efficacy in cleansing, etc. that will likely be put into a megapost someday.

Meanwhile, check out:

http://tinyurl.com/lymanritual
http://preview.tinyurl.com/byritual

This post justifies several EQ and Gospel Doctrine...

2008-07-18T16:09:42.371-06:00

This post justifies several EQ and Gospel Doctrine lessons I have taught regarding "baptism and the remissions of sins." Too frequently members of the Church automatically assume that baptism cleanses you from sin. However, the following 2 scriptures (and BY's comments in your post) give a different interpretation:

"They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

"That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;" (D&C 76:51-52)

AND

"And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins." (Mor. 8:25)

Clarly, these two scriptures teach that it is the "keeping of the commandments" that cleanses one from sin, and not the waters of baptism. Whether that happens in the baptismal font or over a period of time after depends on the candidate's personal preparation.

As an example, many people are baptized and don't fully grasp the doctrine of repentance, and many are baptized without even attempting to repent. A just God cannot authorize a cleansing of these individuals without the proper steps of purification.

The same can also be said of those who enter into sacred temple covenants unworthily. The Holy Spirit of Promise cannot seal upon these individuals the promised blessings until they are spiritually prepared for such.

Ever since understanding this principle, I have chuckled when a member of the Bishopric would introduce a newly baptized member as "the cleanest member of the ward."

No way dude. The key to looking smart may very wel...

2008-07-18T10:58:29.435-06:00

No way dude. The key to looking smart may very well be to keep your mouth shut whenever you don't know. (And ask quiet questions.)

Always gotta have a good fancy answer grounded in ...

2008-07-18T10:57:37.439-06:00

Always gotta have a good fancy answer grounded in doctrine and scripture. whatever. ;-)

Personally I think doing baptisms for the dead is ...

2008-07-18T08:28:12.938-06:00

Personally I think doing baptisms for the dead is a good opportunity to renew in that manner.

So...I'm very happy to see someone recognize the "...

2008-07-18T00:52:01.298-06:00

So...I'm very happy to see someone recognize the "reformation" as a real phenomenon that took place within the Church and its Dogmas.

The baptism thing is wonderful manifestation of leaders and Saints recommitting or re-covenant-ing to Christ and His Church.

I know I do the same on Sundays with the the Sacrament, But I sometimes wish I could gown back down into the waters, so as to feel and experience that very real and symbolic event. Ritual is a wonderful thing. I suppose me and Nibley are the only ones who truly appreciate it! LOL

Sione...

PS. For Church stuff...go to:

http://thelamanite.blogspot.com

The talk is at JD 4:135 if you want to take a peak...

2008-07-17T18:30:28.122-06:00

The talk is at JD 4:135 if you want to take a peak in advance. I suppose you'll get there soon so I look forward to your thoughts. It is pretty graphic in its description of the Spirit World. I'll keep my eyes open.

Probably. I take them as they come. Haven't seen t...

2008-07-17T13:50:38.466-06:00

Probably. I take them as they come. Haven't seen that one yet.

As long as we are speaking about JMG's death and t...

2008-07-17T13:42:03.350-06:00

As long as we are speaking about JMG's death and the attempts to heal him, are you going to post on HCK's talk about JMG's vision of paradise the last few days of his life? This is one of my favorites in the JD. It helped my wife deal with the loss of her mother.

I don't think I've ever seen a description of the spirit world quite like it.

Let it be known I am forever after holding you to ...

2008-07-17T11:31:25.210-06:00

Let it be known I am forever after holding you to that date, J.

Quick correction to my previous comment. The year...

2008-07-17T11:17:21.586-06:00

Quick correction to my previous comment. The years for when re-baptism mostly died out should have been 1893-1897.

Indeed. It is sad to read the accounts of his bret...

2008-07-17T10:51:52.460-06:00

Indeed. It is sad to read the accounts of his brethren who wanted to help him heal through faith in God, only to have him pass away.

I love the role JMG plays in the Reformation perio...

2008-07-17T10:48:16.778-06:00

I love the role JMG plays in the Reformation period. I believe that he was baptizing so much, especially during the Winter, that he caught Pneumonia and died as a result of it. Heber was only a few days old. Because Heber's mother was a widow, Brigham wouldn't let him serve a mission.

It is interesting to see how there events affect the leaders and influence their lives.

Excellent, I really look forward to the baptism fo...

2008-07-17T10:03:56.297-06:00

Excellent, I really look forward to the baptism for healing stuff. I was disappointed finding little on that subject in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.

I'll have to check conference sermons around that time, J., to see if there is an increased emphasis in sacrament as covenant renewal (unless you already did. Your publication, forthcoming will aid in vamping up this post in the future.)

Where can SC's diss be located? My e-mail is LifeOnaPlate@Gmail.com.

Nice post! Re-baptism was prominent in Nauvoo and...

2008-07-17T09:48:23.256-06:00

Nice post! Re-baptism was prominent in Nauvoo and was practiced into the 20th century. It all but stopped in 1894-1896 when church leaders made a concerted effort to stop the practice.

Kris and I have a paper in the forthcoming fall JMH, entitled: "'They Shall Be Made Whole: A History of Baptism for Health.'" In it, beyond detailing the rise and fall of the healing ritual, we give more information on re-baptism than has been assembled before.

As to the Reformation re-baptisms, you should definitely check out Taysom's dissy. Some good stuff there.

Well, I'm only to volume 4 of the JD so far, so I ...

2008-07-17T09:34:14.368-06:00

Well, I'm only to volume 4 of the JD so far, so I haven't gotten to the answer yet. ;)

Really, though, it seems rebaptism petered out over time. I am not sure exactly when the final edict was given, however. When I find out I'll make sure to update this post, though. The main sources I used didn't discuss its cessation from what I can tell, so the ambiguity may be a problem. I suppose rebaptism itself goes all the way back to the organization of the official Church in 1830 when members were rebaptized after the church was established formally.

Your blog is really interesting.When did rebaptism...

2008-07-17T09:27:31.138-06:00

Your blog is really interesting.

When did rebaptism end as a practice among the saints? I view it as similar to the ordinance of adoption in terms of early LDS practice.