Comments on Life On Gold Plates: The Curriculum Department and the Search for the A...

Shellie, thanks for reading. I appreciated your co...

2009-07-27T08:42:31.572-06:00

Shellie, thanks for reading. I appreciated your comments.

I appreciated your comments on By Common Consent @...

2009-07-27T02:00:44.817-06:00

I appreciated your comments on By Common Consent @ TB Marsh, as well as this post. You sound like a big voice of reason. Too many people take sides about things that people said or did or what they were like 100+ years ago. It makes more sense to say "possibly" a lot. GA Smith's story may have had a factual basis, even without anything necessarily having been written about it at the time, yet he was privy to it. Or it may have been an ugly rumor GA Smith believed. Either way, when I hear TB Marsh's name I don't think of a bad guy, whether or not he was stubborn about the milk thing. Nor do I get the message that he left over that, more like it was one step in that direction, if it is indeed factual. I didn't even get the impression in lessons that he suffered all those things that happened to him because of apostasy (even if BY obviously did), rather he suffered by not having the blessings of the gospel he once knew. Maybe I'm just dense, but I didn't read all that junk into the story. I do think after reading about him that he was a fascinating person.
Back to the possibly thing, I think people jump to conclusions way too often. And I won't take anything as fact until I have checked out the references to see if they really say what they are purported to say, and consider how reliable these sources are to begin with. It's nice to see some similar efforts being made with the JS papers.Manuals are never going to be that in depth. I'd be happy if they'd just point out people were real flawed human beings, and they were still great. Just my big 2 cents on these types of things and thanks for your common sense.

Hey Brother! Vanilla Ice doo. Thanks for the compl...

2009-07-21T20:50:57.209-06:00

Hey Brother! Vanilla Ice doo. Thanks for the compliments.

I think the Telestial kingdom gets cited because it heightens the sentiment. If the Telestial kingdom is so great, imagine how great the Celestial is! That sort of thing.

As for suicide, I don't believe suicide automatically results in a Telestial resurrection. I think God is capable of judging the mental state of those who make such a decision and they'll be judged like the rest of us, coupled with the grace of Christ.

Boozer is gone. An interesting column in the news this week by Gordon Monson basically argued that Boozer always looked out for himself and his career before the success of the team. Sadly I agree with his sentiments, and hope we can get something decent for Boozer.

It's been a while brother. I enjoy reading this s...

2009-07-21T20:28:35.407-06:00

It's been a while brother. I enjoy reading this stuff, but I don't know how the %#$@ you get the time to do all this. Your references are very professional and it's great work.

Anyway, I was led to a past post about commiting suicide to get to the telestial kingdom, and after reading your post I don't know why everyone thought that that third hand quote was referencing the telestial kingdom. It said "life beyond the vail," not telestial kingdom. It was also a good point to bring up the fact that Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon didn't commit suicide after having a vision of the degrees of glory.

Also, you seemed to have some issue with people assuming that those who commit suicide will go to the telestial kingdom. Can you clarify? Thanks, brother

Elder Carter

PS-Let's talk Jazz sometime!

No spam, thanks!

2009-07-17T11:50:37.616-06:00

No spam, thanks!

MoSop, thanks for weighing in. In different times ...

2009-07-15T15:51:51.687-06:00

MoSop, thanks for weighing in. In different times different questions are asked of the past resulting in different histories. It seems the Church is going for the long-term sustainable manual that doesn't get itself too stuck in current historiographical interpretations or themes. There are venue where we can do this, like MHA, JWHS, etc. but as far as a church manual goes, it would be fun for us in the present to see a contemporary historical treatment with standards and approaches of current "scholarly" historians, but in a decade the manual would need to be done all over again. And so on.

I really enjoyed reading this article, and the sub...

2009-07-15T10:44:34.879-06:00

I really enjoyed reading this article, and the subsequent conversation. I truly appreciate the church administration for creating the Presidents' series, as it offers members foremost the opportunity to read and study the words of our prophets throughout our relative brief history. As explained, it would be a massive task to pick and choose what to include and what to omit. Perhaps, instead of becoming critical, members should approach the manuals as just an "introduction" to their studies; something to whet the appetite and encourage us to dig deeper. How blessed we are to live in a day and age when digging deeper and obtaining more information is open to everyone! We now have the new Papers Project, the extensive Church History museum in downtown SLC which has made documents and archives available to the general membership and public alike, and the blessed internet which allows us in two clicks more information, conference talks, historical references and commentary than one brain has the capacity to absorb! As each member matures in their personal knowledge, understanding and testimony of the gospel, then it behooves us to expand our personal studies. Jesus taught the principle of progressing from "milk to meat" – and it is one of the amazing doctrines of the church, that each of us may progress both is this life and the next. Every bit of knowledge that we gain here goes with us and we will have that much more advantage in the life to come. However, as much as learning, progressing and expanding our minds is an awesome blessing it comes with serious responsibility to remain humble and realize our human weakness. No matter how much we know in mortality, we still know nothing but a cursory outline of our Savior’s Atonement, and the world to come. I think it’s best to acknowledge that fact first, before embarking into any gospel intellectualism. The only way we can ever learn pure truth is through a personal relationship with the Holy Ghost. I acknowledge that attending instructional church meetings is often an exercise in extreme patience, and the older I get, endurance. However, when I attend prayerfully, seeking to feel the spirit and have my mind personally enlightened, the meeting never fails to edify. The same holds true to studying the scriptures, other religions, secular knowledge, and yes, even the church manuals. ;)

jamal, thanks for the interesting comparisons and ...

2009-07-14T08:03:09.618-06:00

jamal, thanks for the interesting comparisons and thoughts.

I was reminded of Blake Ostler's thoughts on revelation on fallibility in Mormon thought. James over at Lehi's Library reminded me of the interesting section of Ostler's review of How Wide the Divide:

"Instead of inerrancy, I believe that Latter-day Saints should accept a view of revelation/translation as “creative coparticipation” involving both divine inspiration and human interpretation. The scripture is inspired because God imparted knowledge to prophets/writers “in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding” (D&C 1:24). Scripture is the Word of God as proclaimed in the eighth Article of Faith because God has breathed knowledge into the prophets in their own language and according to their varying capacities to understand. Thus the inspiration of scripture is not experienced by the prophet/writer free of human interpretation, cultural biases, and conceptual limitations....Revelation is not the filling of a mental void with divine content. It is the synthesis of human and divine event. The prophet is a coauthor and active participant in conceptualizing, verbalizing, and expressing the message of scripture in language meaningful to his contemporaries."

The whole section is here: http://tinyurl.com/mf2daj which also links to the full Ostler piece.

Wow, I just couldn't help but compare this to the ...

2009-07-14T03:34:31.954-06:00

Wow, I just couldn't help but compare this to the Islamic "science" of Hadith (حديث - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith ) and Isnad (إسناد - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isnad ). Those refer to the very formal process in Islam of trying to determine the authenticity of various statements attributed to the Prophet Muhammad. Now, there's a key difference for us (besides for being much younger and not having as developed or formal a process) in that we claim continuing revelation rather than the Muslim claim that Muhammad was the final "seal of the prophets" (خاتم الانبياء). So aren't we supposed to know through our present Prophet and revelatory authority what is and isn't accurate in purported Joseph Smith statements rather than having to rely on historical best guesses? My presumption is that the answer includes a combination of having to study it out in our minds and hearts (I.e., the Lord expects full research efforts from us if we want the answer) and that in any case prophetic statements in human language are always fatally flawed by finite human minds, that the real goal is to get our spirits to understand the principles through the Holy Ghost, and scriptures and other words of the prophets are meant to turn our spiritual senses on, not to give us a letter-by-letter transcript to wrest. Obviously if we can get that accurate transcript it may be the best available guide, so we should seek it, but no hang our salvation on whether or not we can find it.

It's my understanding that the "Teaching of The Pr...

2009-07-13T17:30:52.948-06:00

It's my understanding that the "Teaching of The Presidents of the Church" series of lesson manuals is part of the great sifting process of the last days, where the wheat will be seperated from the chaff, and only those who remain faithful through years of such lessons will inherit their reward.

Based on the attendance figures for my local EQ, it seems to be working. I don't know if it has anything to do with the manuals, but I no longer have to fight for a cushy seat every week.

Thanks for the comments, Anonymous and David. J....

2009-07-13T16:18:12.690-06:00

Thanks for the comments, Anonymous and David.

J. Stapley,
I am with you on seeing problems with the new manual. One reason I did this particular post was to try and get a feel for the work that goes into the manuals, hopefully to inspire a bit more appreciation than we typically give the folks who work on them. At the same time, I would really like to see more from our manuals, but it seems the JS one is behind us and likely won't get another official treatment of this kind for years, I suspect. We also have to keep in mind the priorities of the correlation folks, such as making decisions in light of the growing internationalization of the church (along with all the cultural and linguistic baggage related to it).

Great write-up. I think the manual is a step forw...

2009-07-13T16:10:27.653-06:00

Great write-up. I think the manual is a step forward, but I don't think it is historically rigorous. The frequency of reminiscences is particularly a sticking point.

Your transcription of the classification system is particularly helpful in understanding what was going on. Nice biblio, too.

ricke, I think we have rather robust teachings th...

2009-07-13T12:48:08.207-06:00

ricke,

I think we have rather robust teachings that support both group and individual salvation, so to me there is no real conflict between the Coray account and the other 3 that day. I recommend putting those quotes in context of the developing doctrinal milieu about sealing (of which there are two levels of: one conditioned on faithfulness, the other guaranteed except in cases of murder, apostasy, and adultery). If sealed parents can transgress so as to nullify their seal, then so can children. What seems important is that righteous parents will have awesome power to positively influence their children.

I did a blog on this awhile ago
http://www.millennialstar.org
/the-most-comforting-doctrine/ but much more work would have to be done to recover Joseph Smith taught compared to what Brigham and Heber experienced and taught sealing in Nauvoo and then Utah. I think J. Stapley was working on a paper covering the latter period.

So to tie it back to Blair's search for the Authentic JS: sometimes recovering the real JS has an added challenge: there are public sources and then there were sources (sometimes unwritten, but passed through oral tradition) not meant for public consumption (like temple marriage and plural marriage).

I respond to that quotation with context and other...

2009-07-13T12:41:01.011-06:00

I respond to that quotation with context and other quotations.

http://www.mormonmonastery.org/mormon-temple-changes/

Ben: I was somewhat disappointed with the remaind...

2009-07-13T12:08:21.516-06:00

Ben:

I was somewhat disappointed with the remainder of the program. The description from RB came with only a few minutes left, and they didn't go into much more detail about how the scale was applied, other than that it helped in sorting through the sources. I emailed Ron about it for more info but he said they aren't ready to give more info than what was discussed on the program yet. He said they are working on a way to get something more together, though. I got the general impression that it wasn't a strict scale that rated strictly by the numbers, but that they took into consideration the records, who wrote them, how accurate a particular individual was in other areas, predispositions/bias, etc. The "categorization" document appears to be a tool but not an exact prescription, it seems. I think they could have been more clear on that point, though.

Sanford:
I know what you mean. I threw in a few comments as a participant in the lesson in regards to more specifics on the preparation for the room in the Brick Store, and other historical tidbits, but I would have liked to see more info on the development of the ceremony in terms of the Kirtland experience, the difference in later temples, and so forth. The quote that was emphasized regarding the unchangeable nature of the ordinances probably deserved some treatment as well, seeing that the ceremony has adapted, though there aren't many specifics we can discuss. What source could we turn to on that, speaking from a faithful perspective?

Excellent, Blair. I was not aware of this system, ...

2009-07-13T11:34:14.628-06:00

Excellent, Blair. I was not aware of this system, so thanks for spelling it out here.

From my research, I have found that a good number of documents that would here be considered D1-2, E1-2, and F1-2 are sometimes as reliable as, say, something C1-2, and much more reliable than C3-5.

Did the show make it appear that the further down the letter scale, the less reliable it was?

Very interesting. Thanks for the breakdown. It giv...

2009-07-13T11:33:58.078-06:00

Very interesting. Thanks for the breakdown. It gives me a much better picture of how these manuals come to be and what gets included and why.

I think the JS manual is great step forward but I find the emphasis on present day application tends to dominate lessons. For example in Priesthood meeting yesterday we covered lesson 36 Receiving the Ordinances and Blessings of the Temple. The lesson had some very interesting information about the implementation of the endowment early in Nauvoo. But after a cursory mention, the instruction turned into an often voiced refrain for regular temple attendance with little or no connection to the lesson. I felt that very meaningful lesson material had largely been ignored.

I'm not sure I understand the reluctance of my quorum to dig into the manual. It is a wonderful blessing to be able to read Joseph's own words and those around him. And while I understand that not all teachers teach the same way, there is something about the manual or the setting that seems to makes a real exploration of the manual difficult.

ricke It is often a struggle to know when it is be...

2009-07-13T10:40:58.826-06:00

ricke
It is often a struggle to know when it is best to speak up on certain points. It can be hard to know what is worth clarifying and what isn't. Since I typically try to err on the side of grace I probably would have let that one slide. Sometimes we spend too much time closing the doors when they may very well be more open than we think.

SmallAxe
Thanks, and yes, the links to the discussions talk about some of the problems people have with the manual. I would also really appreciate more thorough historical analysis in terms of how the quotes themselves are used, whereas this post focuses more on the process of quote verification itself. The C. department takes a lot of heat from some of us, and the more I think about it the more I feel the need to temper that sentiment a little and try to acknowledge some of the growth we see in their methods, seeking the "praiseworthy" aspects as well as areas I feel can be improved. One point I keep going back to is the internationalization of the Church and the efforts made to cater to that body as opposed to the Wasatch Front, etc.

Moreover, since the manual itself explains its purpose, not as exploring the "historic" Joseph Smith, but as applying the "teachings for our day," it is more palatable, though not completely satisfying. I also wonder how much of the really cool stuff in the new manual that we overlook, stuff we might have expected to see left out. Next time you are reading through a chapter see what strikes you in this way and you might be surprised. I have been a few times, anyway.

Jared T.
Thanks, bro.

Awesome post, BH, thanks!

2009-07-13T09:59:19.552-06:00

Awesome post, BH, thanks!

This has probably already been said in the posts y...

2009-07-13T09:56:34.453-06:00

This has probably already been said in the posts you link to, but the problem with the manual, IMO, isn't one of authenticity but one of sterility. The manuals are created, with the possible exception of the BY volume, to create a sense of uniformity among prophets. Practically the only distinguishing feature between each volume is the initial story that's told at the beginning of a chapter to illustrate what ever the chapter is about.

No doubt there's plenty of authentic material, but the choice of what authentic material to include seems to be dictated by larger desire for uniformity.

There may be good reasons for this, of course, but the problem becomes persuading other members that the manual is not exhaustive, nor definitive as far as to who Joseph Smith was.

This issue came up in an uncomfortable discussion ...

2009-07-13T09:25:41.622-06:00

This issue came up in an uncomfortable discussion in Gospel Doctrine class last Sunday. The teacher noted that several General Authorities, starting with Orson F. Whitney, had quoted TPJS as saying that the sealing of righteous parents ensured the salvation of their wayward children. This seems to be contrary to our understanding of individual agency, so I pointed out that the Coray version of Joseph's August 13, 1843 sermon included a conditional statement limiting the blessings to "children who have not transgressed." (See Words of Joseph Smith for that date.) By bringing this up, I seemed to be contradicting Elder Whitney and the General Authorities who had quoted him since, including Elder Packer. My wife and I had a debate later about whether it was worth it or not.