Comments on Life On Gold Plates: Brant Gardner: Joseph the Seer, or Why Joseph Tran...

"Anonymous," as per the comment guidelines please ...

2010-05-23T12:09:41.160-06:00

"Anonymous," as per the comment guidelines please select a suitable pseudonym that you can use regularly.

I don't think calling seer stones a urim and thummim is like calling an apple an orange, personally. It seems to me the label of something biblical was applied to the stones which were believed to function much the same in order to help the biblical legitimacy of the translation.

For more on the seer stones as per your questions you can see Mark Ashurst-McGee's thesis on seer stones. Let me know if you have real questions about these matters or if you are simply trying to heap some scorn on the idea of seer stones generally.

I find the use of Urim and Thummim very misleading...

2010-05-22T11:26:47.434-06:00

I find the use of Urim and Thummim very misleading. The Urim and Thummim were "lost" according to D&C 10, so every single word of Mormon doctrine was translated by using seer stones. Calling seer stones the Urim and Thummim would be the same as calling an apple an orange, as they are two very different things.

Joseph Smith found his white stone using the green stone of Sally Chase. Sally Chase was neither a Mormon nor a Christian, and Joseph Smith used her stone to find his before the Book of Mormon was written and was hired at $14 a month (to quote Joseph Smith), again before the Book of Mormon was written.

Question: Is the green seer stone owned by Sally Chase the mother of Mormon seer stones, since Joseph Smith "saw" his white seer stone through Sally's green stone?

More info from Brant: his paper interacts with Mar...

2009-08-07T23:26:14.337-06:00

More info from Brant: his paper interacts with Mark's stuff, and there is a part where he takes issue with one of Mark's conclusions. We'll have to wait until the full thing is available to know the specifics but he was familiar with all the sources I've read. (Was Fleming's Bushman seminar piece published anywhere?)

Also, o n the breastplate, that was the impression I got too. I don't know of a single witness account that describes use of the breastplate. But a few of us are working on getting every early witness account or description of the translation in one place to evaluate them, so we should be finding even more out soon enough.

From the last Q&A, I'm gathering that Gardner does...

2009-08-07T19:34:46.362-06:00

From the last Q&A, I'm gathering that Gardner doesn't believe that Joseph ever used the breastplate while translating?

Very cool, send it my way.

2009-08-07T12:54:48.923-06:00

Very cool, send it my way.

Blair: I just revisted the post I listed, and real...

2009-08-07T12:27:53.772-06:00

Blair: I just revisted the post I listed, and realized that it didn't deal what I thought it did (I have a bad memory, at times). I have a longer paper that deals with it--if you want to see it, just send smoke signals my way.

Gardner provided a lot more info than the blog pos...

2009-08-07T12:27:52.038-06:00

Gardner provided a lot more info than the blog post, stretching further back in time than your post does and following a larger interpretive framework. Check the published version when it comes out and see what you can see.

Blair: the post i listed above talked about how ea...

2009-08-07T12:15:12.599-06:00

Blair: the post i listed above talked about how early Mormon writers contextualized it.

Ben, Where can I read your in-depth look at Church...

2009-08-07T12:12:26.308-06:00

Ben,
Where can I read your in-depth look at Church member reactions?

Blair: Thanks for your response. I dealt in depth ...

2009-08-07T12:02:42.879-06:00

Blair: Thanks for your response. I dealt in depth with how the early Church dealt with the context, and many people before me have made similar arguments in print. Concerning why members today would be shocked--does that really need to be addressed? Just pick up the "Setting the Record Straight: The Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon" book and see why people don't like that context. It also seems like he is just summarizing Mark AM's thesis.

I know this is to a FAIR audience, but I would still expect something new out of a presentation. But, I will just have to wait for website to put up a transcript.

Brant has referred to Ashurst-McGee before, I don'...

2009-08-07T12:01:46.126-06:00

Brant has referred to Ashurst-McGee before, I don't remember him vocally doing so in this paper, but wouldn't be surprised to see him in the footnotes once we get to see the paper. I've read parts of another project rough draft Brant is working on and he refers to AM several times.

Huh. I would think that Ashurst-McGee's stuff wou...

2009-08-07T11:58:40.326-06:00

Huh. I would think that Ashurst-McGee's stuff would be critical. Though perhaps the use of "village seer" was a nod to him.

Ben, from what I remember Brant didn;t vocally ref...

2009-08-07T11:48:34.988-06:00

Ben, from what I remember Brant didn;t vocally refer to Fleming's stuff or any blog posts. The only LDS sources I recall him referencing directly were Quinn and Bushman. I did not get the impression Brant felt he was presenting anything entirely new, only introducing the concepts and views of religion/magic scholarship to FAIR audience through the conference and paper. In order to know who else he was working from we'll have to wait to see the published paper. I don't know that he intended anything "new," I think his intent was to describe the context of magic and money digging, as well as seer stone interpreting. Further, he laid great emphasis on WHY church members today might be shocked by the rock-in-hat thing, and also how members of the church at the time were reconciling the situation. Has anyone discussed that perspective in detail?

Blair, do you feel Brant Gardner presented anythin...

2009-08-07T11:34:20.071-06:00

Blair, do you feel Brant Gardner presented anything new here? Looking through your notes, it seems he was just repeating what has been said by others. His comments on religion and magic are very similar to Steve Fleming's Bushman seminar presentation last year. His comments on finding a useful narrative is what many have been saying, including me (http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/well-did-joseph-use-a-hat-during-the-translation-of-the-book-of-mormon-or-didnt-he/).

What, if anything, was new in this presentation?