Comments on Life On Gold Plates: A few comments on Elder Holland's conference addre...

"Anonymous," it might benefit you to look into the...

2010-06-25T07:58:22.585-06:00

"Anonymous," it might benefit you to look into the distinction between deductive and inductive reasoning. Also, please read my comment guidelines.

The logical fallacies used by Mr. Holland could pr...

2010-06-25T01:52:01.739-06:00

The logical fallacies used by Mr. Holland could prove any religion true. The most compelling reason not to believe something right away is that there is not sufficient evidence to support the claim. This is precisely why I don't believe in the Koran, Bible, BoM, and Mother Goose. If Mr. Holland could substantiate any of his claims with any resonable verifiable evidence, he would have no need to bear any emotion about his beliefs whatsoever because the truth would objectively stand on its own.

Thanks for reading. Nice blog you have here.

No prob. Also, I just re-read the address. It be...

2009-10-09T12:56:24.270-06:00

No prob.

Also, I just re-read the address. It begins with something of a common LDS theme, the pitfalls of mortality and the promised hope for a better future. He talks about an ancient prophet's final testimony of God's word, the iron rod, and then refers to Joseph Smith as a testifying prophet of the word of God. He enjoins faith in the Book of Mormon for the purpose of instilling faith in Christ, of whom the book testifies. The Book of Mormon is loaded with info on helping our fellow man, bearing one another's burdens, helping the sick and afflicted and so forth. He continues:

I testify that one cannot come to full faith in this latter-day work—and thereby find the fullest measure of peace and comfort in these, our times—until he or she embraces the divinity of the Book of Mormon and the Lord Jesus Christ, of whom it testifies.

He bore his personal witness of the divinity of the book and added:

My witness echoes that of Nephi, who wrote part of the book in his “last days”:
“Hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, . . . and they teach all men that they should do good.
“And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day.”

Indeed, the Book of Mormon is to enjoin us to do good, to do the words of Christ you refer to on your blog. For me the book is more than a nice fairy tale, a pious fraud, or a "theology" in Plato's sense of the term. It's about stuff that really happened and about stuff that we are supposed to do. And the prophet who brought it forth felt comfort from its pages, and testified of its divinity, which is a powerful message for me. I hope this helps you understand a little bit more why I liked his talk so much, Loyd.

BHodges: Thanks so much for the reply. I think thi...

2009-10-09T08:07:38.638-06:00

BHodges: Thanks so much for the reply. I think this is a pretty powerful apologetic argument for the BofM that Elder Holland made, but it's only as strong as the story is true. Your response is excellent and provides the background that I was looking for. Thanks a lot.

BWR: Check D&C 135 where John Taylor describes the...

2009-10-09T08:01:32.745-06:00

BWR: Check D&C 135 where John Taylor describes the incident. It is only implicit that Joseph was with him when he read Ether and turned the corner of the page down. From John Taylor we read:

When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD.”—The same morning, after Hyrum had made ready to go—shall it be said to the slaughter? yes, for so it was—he read the following paragraph, near the close of the twelfth chapter of Ether, in the Book of Mormon, and turned down the leaf upon it..."

Taylor proceeds to say things about Joseph and Hyrum, "they," "they," "they," and so forth. In this passage alone it does not explicitly state that "Hyrum read this in the presence of Joseph," but rhetorically Joseph is present in the context of the whole. "After Hyrum had made ready to go" I doubt he text-messaged Joseph to meet up someplace. Rhetorically John Taylor has placed Joseph in the picture. It is speculative, though.

If Joseph wasn't present at the actual reading mentioned in section 135 we also have to wonder how John Taylor knew about the situation to begin with. Either he was there (but he doesn't say he was there, so must we assume he wasn't?) or he heard it reported.

If he heard it from Hyrum it would have more than likely been in the presence of Joseph. Again, the three spent time reading selections from the Book of Mormon at Carthage jail. Hyrum went so far as to turn the leaf on the page down, I imagine this meant enough to him to mention it to his brother at least later. It would be a stretch to think Joseph wouldn't have known about this even if he wasn't present. They spent all their last hours together, and spent part of that time reading from the Book of Mormon. According to the History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.32, p.600-601, shortly after 9pm, June 26th, 1844, while in the Carthage jail:

"During the evening the Patriarch Hyrum Smith read and commented upon extracts from the Book of Mormon, on the imprisonments and deliverance of the bore a powerful testimony to the guards of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, the Restoration of the Gospel, the administration of angels, and that the kingdom of God was again established upon the earth, for the sake of which he was then incarcerated in that prison, and not because he had violated any law of God or man....Joseph gave expression to several presentiments that he had to die, and said 'I would like to see my family again,' and 'I would to God that I could preach to the Saints in Nauvoo once more.'"

The following morning, some time after 10am, there was written: "Both Joseph and Hyrum bore a faithful testimony to the Latter-day work, and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and prophesied of the triumph of the Gospel over all the earth, exhorting the brethren present to faithfulness and persevering diligence in proclaiming the Gospel, building up the Temple, and performing all the duties connected with our holy religion." (ibid. p.610)

The references to the brothers reading from the Book of Mormon at Carthage jail are in the History of the Church vol. 6.

Cody, I posted my last few comments on my blog. In...

2009-10-09T07:22:32.106-06:00

Cody, I posted my last few comments on my blog. In an effort to avoid derailing Blair's blog let's move the discussion there.

Can anyone tell me how we know that H. Smith and J...

2009-10-09T06:46:49.760-06:00

Can anyone tell me how we know that H. Smith and J. Smith read from Ether before they died? Where is that documented? How do we know that the page is turned down for that purpose? I'd like to see the documentation for that claim.

"By testifying with power and boldness of the Book...

2009-10-08T23:33:56.295-06:00

"By testifying with power and boldness of the Book of Mormon, Elder Holland is essentially inviting people to Christ. There is no other book in existence that can teach you more about Christ and being a good neighbor than the Book of Mormon."

I agree with the latter sentence, but unfortunately that is not how most Mormons I know read the text. Holland's talk focused on the truthfulness of the BofM's ancient origins. From my experience, most Mormons find the testimony of the Book's historicity more important than the Book's content. As I mentioned earlier, most Mormon would think that the better way to help the starving poor is to give them a testimony of a book than to give them some food. A testimony of the book is worthless unless it turns into change in the world. Similarly, a testimony of Christ is empty if it isn't shared with Christian living. I think Jesus said it best:

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

"We need the saving ordinances of baptism and the ...

2009-10-08T23:33:41.674-06:00

"We need the saving ordinances of baptism and the temple by way of the proper priesthood in order to obtain salvation."

Well we obviously have a different conception of what sin is, and thus a very different conception of what salvation is. While you seem to see sin as a metaphysical stain on your soul that requires the metaphysical powers of a prescribed ritual, I see sin as the breaking of relationship--with others and with God. With this view, baptism (and the temple ordinances) isn't about literally washing away sin-stains, but is about creating community symbolically washing away the individualism and self-interest that caused divisions in our relationships. While I am admittedly more of a universalist, I nonetheless see baptism (if done in the manner seen in the scriptures) as the best means for this. As my experience as a missionary, it was obvious that for the converts I taught the most valuable part of their baptism was their inclusion into a new community and family. Unfortunately most of the members didn't realize this and didn't embrace them as they should have and allowed them to slip back into their past of severed relationships with others.

"As hard as we try and as much as we might want, even the perfect lifestyle full of service is not going to unite humanity."

The perfect lifestyle full of service is the uniting of humanity. By serving others we create the Kingdom of God. We build the relationships that continue into the next life. Joseph Smith was quite clear that heaven wasn't a place we go, but a place we create. Heaven isn't the gathering of strangers, but the continuation of the relationships and community we develop here.

"Christ himself didn't even come to unite the entire earth during his mortal ministry. He created some extremely large divisions in society by declaring with boldness of the truthfulness of his gospel."

Jesus came down as a person to try to affect change in the same we that we are to try... as humans. He wasn't just going about preaching about a book and a bunch of individual rituals. The Jews already had their devotion to books and rituals. That was their game, they would have loved Jesus if he were playing their game. The Romans would have been just as fine with that as well. Some guy preaching about a book and rituals was no threat. Jesus created divisions because he spoke out against the oppressive systems of his day. He didn't create divisions, but rather pointed out the divisions that already existed from these oppressive powers. He pointed out the divisions created by the Jewish focus on individual piety and ritual observance. He pointed out the division caused by Roman oppression--which got him killed. He pointed out the division caused by the ever-expanding disparity between the rich and the poor. Jesus recognized that peace and true community could not be achieved when oppressive powers existed severed God's children.

Perhaps I'm just disenchanted by the many professe...

2009-10-08T23:32:08.127-06:00

Perhaps I'm just disenchanted by the many professed Mormons and Christians who spend their days affirming over and over again how strongly they believe in the BofM, how much they know so-and-so is a prophet, how they know 'the Church is true," how much they know that Jesus is the Christ, etc, etc, etc... and they continue to live in self-righteousness, ignore those in need, and live a life concerned only for their own supposed spiritual salvation.

I'm disenchanted by Mormons who think the best way to help the hungry and homeless is to give them a BofM and share their testimony.

Furthermore, I was not intending to condemn Holland's talk. I was only intending to say that it wasn't anything to get excited over. I've heard dozens of pastors share their testimonies of Jesus, the Bible, homophobia, anti-Mormonism with the same gusto and triumph as Holland.

If I thought that Holland's talk would make a better world and make Mormons act like actual Christians (and not like our self-righteous evangelical counter-parts), I'd be all over it. But my own experience says that won't be the case.

All the BofM testimony sharing on the first Sunday each month just doesn't do near the amount of what Christ asked of us as does one person reaching out to another in need.

Furthermore Cody, you really ought to avoid accusing me of things I have not said. You claim I said that "the only useful talk would be one urging us to "feed starving children." That simply isn't true. You asked, "Ummmm, what better way than to bear testimony of Christs very words and teachings?" I said a testimony shared by feeding starving children would be better, not only. Big difference there.

Here are some more responses to your claims:

"I really think it's sad when members of the church try to secularize the gospel of Jesus Christ, water it down..."

I agree with the watering down part. And I believe that the watering down occurs when we ignore Jesus' commands to build communities and take care of those in need, and replace it with a conservative individualistic soteriology.

Not quite sure what you mean by the secularizing of it though. If you want to call Joseph' communitarianism 'secularization', then have fun. If you want to call Brigham's cooperative economic system 'secularization,' then have go at it. If you want to call Jesus' radical criticisms of Jewish legalism, Roman oppression, and economic disparity 'secularization,' then I guess we just have a different Gospel.

"If all we did as a church was teach service and kindness to neighbors (yes its the second great law of the gospel and we need to apply it more) we would fail to return to our Father in Heaven and would be no different than any of the hundreds of other religions in the world today."

Jesus taught that we love God by loving our neighbor. He taught we serve God, by serving those in need. Jesus himself said that those who return to the Father are those who care for the sick, feed the hungry, visit the prisoners, clothe the naked, and take in the immigrants. Those were his criteria. If you want to water down his teachings and impost the very Pharisaical legality on him, then have a great day. Throughout the scriptures, baptism is not used as a simple ritual which magically removes metaphysical sin-stains, but is an initiation into a community of believers (aka, the body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, etc) who covenant to take care of those in need. I choose to believe in a loving God who places the needs of others above his own pride and desire to be praised. If I die and discover that God was more concerned with his own praise than the alleviation of his children's suffering, I'd gladly go to hell.

I wouldn't go as far as that, Cody, but I agree th...

2009-10-08T21:25:48.783-06:00

I wouldn't go as far as that, Cody, but I agree that Loyd seems to think Elder Holland only said one or two things over and over again. I have been waiting for the transcript to show up so I can do a little proof-texting. :)

Loyd, (and everyone else who still feels the need ...

2009-10-08T20:50:59.292-06:00

Loyd, (and everyone else who still feels the need to complain about Elder Holland's talk)
I find it extremely interesting that you are still attacking Elder Hollands talk. I find it interesting that at the beginning of his talk he warns of a destruction more inside the church than outside it, a personal destruction that comes in the latter days. Elder Holland said, "The Savior warned in the last days, even those of the covenant, the very elect could be deceived by the enemy of truth."
I see eery parallels between his warning and your "rationalizing away" the need for testifying of the Book of Mormon.
I highly suggest you go back and re-read or re-listen to his talk since you fail to see that he invited all to read the Book of Mormon in order to improve their lives. You insist on claiming that his talk was useless and you continue to hold to this thought that the only useful talk would be one urging us to "feed starving children" or one which dwells "in something that actually produces a better world and gets to the heart of what Jesus taught."
In his talk that you so dislike, Elder Holland said, "Love, healing, help, hope, the power of Christ to counter all troubles in all times, including the end of times. That is the safe harbor God wants for us in personal or public days of despair. That is the message with which the Book of Mormon begins and that is the message with which it ends. Calling all to come unto Christ and be perfected in Him." What a beautiful foundation for his talk that testifies of the Book of Mormon.
Those are exactly the words you claim we need to hear, but in your blindness you condemn his talk and testimony.
It is sad that you ignore modern revelation, the power of the book of mormon, and the invitations from the Savior himself.
I wonder why you continue to defend your blog post that condemns Elder Holland with comments that essentially support the very talk you dislike? What is your purpose in condemning a talk that does in fact invite us to come unto Christ? Is it to motivate all those who read your comments to action? I have to believe if you are looking to motivate others to perfrom Christian acts of service you would be infinitely better served to focus on the good messages instead of tearing down Elder Hollands testimony. Why not emulate President Monson and actually inspire others to serve? Why not try being a player in the game rather than a cynical critic on the sidelines?
I shudder to think of how you would have responded were you alive to listen to the apostle Paul, or Abinadi, or Enoch, or Elijah, or any other mouthpiece of God that has spoken with power and authority while offending those who disagree with them.

cody, "Ummmm, what better way than to bear testim...

2009-10-08T18:44:26.426-06:00

cody,

"Ummmm, what better way than to bear testimony of Christs very words and teachings?"

feeding a starving child.

I should add, I don't know that Loyd himself is wa...

2009-10-08T16:08:07.546-06:00

I should add, I don't know that Loyd himself is watering anything down. Buy you might be talking about why Elder Holland would give the particular address he gave rather than addressing directly all of Loyd's points.

Thanks for dropping in. I agree, I believe Loyd is...

2009-10-08T16:01:08.641-06:00

Thanks for dropping in. I agree, I believe Loyd is setting up a false dilemma in saying Elder Holland's talk won't help create a better world and so forth when this is more of a comparative, not distinctive, measure of worth.

I found this blog linked from Loyd's and wanted to...

2009-10-08T15:23:36.455-06:00

I found this blog linked from Loyd's and wanted to comment. I was moved deeply by Elder Holland's talk and think it is exactly what the world needs today (I also loved Pres. Monson's talk and felt it was extremely appropriate as well).
I really think it's sad when members of the church try to secularize the gospel of Jesus Christ, water it down, ignore the divine aspect of modern revelation, the priesthood power, living prophets, and deny the miraculous and wonderful power that the Book of Mormon can bring into peoples lives. If all we did as a church was teach service and kindness to neighbors (yes its the second great law of the gospel and we need to apply it more) we would fail to return to our Father in Heaven and would be no different than any of the hundreds of other religions in the world today.
We need the saving ordinances of baptism and the temple by way of the proper priesthood in order to obtain salvation. As much as we want to sugar coat it, there is only one way to become exalted. It is not being disrespectful of other religions. We don't need to be ashamed of that fact, but yes we definitely need to be tactful with our presentation of it. As hard as we try and as much as we might want, even the perfect lifestyle full of service is not going to unite humanity. Christ himself didn't even come to unite the entire earth during his mortal ministry. He created some extremely large divisions in society by declaring with boldness of the truthfulness of his gospel.
By testifying with power and boldness of the Book of Mormon, Elder Holland is essentially inviting people to Christ. There is no other book in existence that can teach you more about Christ and being a good neighbor than the Book of Mormon. Elder Holland effectively motivated many current members, and possibly many investigators to read the Book of Mormon with more purpose. By so doing, he essentially is helping us to learn of Christ, emulate Christ, and do what Christ would do. This is why the Book of Mormon is so important. It really is the most correct Book on Earth and is the greatest written testimony of Jesus Christ.
Regarding Loyd's last comment, "I just think they should share their testimonies in something that actually produces a better world and gets to the heart of what Jesus taught." Ummmm, what better way than to bear testimony of Christs very words and teachings? I honestly can't believe that you would make such a comment and can't seem to connect the two sides on this. The Book of Mormon is the word of God, contains Christ's teachings, and will produce a better world more effectively than any other document out there.

Papa D., No. They can share their testimonies all...

2009-10-08T10:45:12.959-06:00

Papa D.,

No. They can share their testimonies all they want. I just think they should share their testimonies in something that actually produces a better world and gets to the heart of what Jesus taught.

I'm not condemning Holland's talk. I'm just saying that it really wasn't worth getting excited over.

No way, the famous Bookslinger drops by? Nice to s...

2009-10-08T08:53:28.797-06:00

No way, the famous Bookslinger drops by? Nice to see you.

From Loyd's recent blog post it's hard to see him ...

2009-10-07T22:41:57.545-06:00

From Loyd's recent blog post it's hard to see him arguing any other way. :/

Loyd: I loved Pres. Monson's talk as well.

Dear Elder Holland: Amen, brother!

2009-10-07T21:54:44.680-06:00

Dear Elder Holland:

Amen, brother!

Lloyd, serious question: Are you saying that ALL...

2009-10-07T21:03:04.370-06:00

Lloyd, serious question:

Are you saying that ALL General Conference talks should be action-based ONLY - that there should be no "pure testimony" shared in such a setting?

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but that appears to be what you are saying.

whoops: "you're", not "your" in the first sentence...

2009-10-07T14:20:56.117-06:00

whoops: "you're", not "your" in the first sentence above.

Ah, I get what your saying Lloyd. Yes, 1st Corint...

2009-10-07T14:18:50.551-06:00

Ah, I get what your saying Lloyd. Yes, 1st Corinthians 13 is much more important than, say, Revelation 1. Nevertheless, "all scripture is profitable". For me, my conviction of the divinity of the Book of Mormon convinces me even further in my devotion to Jesus Christ. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that truly appreciating the teachings in the Book of Mormon will actually lead to more "love in action". Surly there can't be anything wrong with giving a sermon about a topic of which the Lord himself spoke.

I agree that the weightier matters of the law are ...

2009-10-07T14:06:45.264-06:00

I agree that the weightier matters of the law are important. At the same time I see no overwhelming problem with Elder Holland's talk in the garden of conference addresses. Further, I think there are reasons Elder Holland delivered that message though you and I may not be fully aware of it.

CC, but what value are those things if the world e...

2009-10-07T13:57:32.859-06:00

CC, but what value are those things if the world essentially remains the same as it is. Sure, because of Holland we might have more people getting up on the first sunday of every month and they might bear their testimonies with even more force... but so what?

Monson's talk demanded action and change. It demanded that we start to actually be Christian rather than saying over and over again that we are Christian. Why care so much about the historicity of the BofM, when it's the message of the BofM that is important.

It doesn't matter how strong your testimony is in a book, a prophet, a church, a Christ, or a God... If we aren't loving our neighbor's, if we are neglecting the poor, if we aren't caring for the needy and fighting for the oppressed, it is all for naught.

Based on Jesus' teachings in Matthew 25, an atheist who volunteers at the homeless shelter and prison will have a far better chance being in the Kingdom of God than the strongest of BofM believers who converts a hundred to sharing her testimony of the book, allthewhile neglecting the sick and immigrants.